View source for Vero - Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Slogan 'Jesus is Lord'

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|style="padding-left:.2em;"| This page is preserved as an archive of the associated article page's "votes for deletion" debate (the forerunner of [[WP:AFD|articles for deletion]]). '''Please do not modify this page, nor delete it as an orphaned talk page'''.
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'''This page is an archive of the discussion surrounding the proposed deletion of a page entitled [[Slogan 'Jesus is Lord']].'''

'''Further comments should be made on the [[Talk:Slogan 'Jesus is Lord'|talk page]] rather than here as this page is kept as an historic record.'''

'''The result of the debate was to keep the page.''' 


*[[Slogan 'Jesus is Lord']] Are we going to start making articles on religious slogans now?  Christianity alone could provide hundreds, then there are Jewish ones, sayings of the Buddha, even the utterances of the Great Goobly (Blessed be It).  Let's nip this in the bud while it is still possible.  If this particular slogan is so important that it needs to be highlighted, then it can become a paragraph in [[Christianity]]. --[[User:Zero0000|zero]] 14:10, 14 Oct 2003 (UTC)
**Delete. --[[User:bmills|bmills]]
**Folks, we need to decide if slogans belong here. Is Wikipedia a slogan repository?  If it is not then we need to get rid of all of them, the "[[AIDS Kills Fags Dead|kills **** dead]]" one and the "zionism is racism" one and etc......but we cannot just pick and choose the ones we like or that fit our personal POV.  What is the policy on slogans?[[User:Ark30inf|Ark30inf]] 14:24, 14 Oct 2003 (UTC)
**Keep. This is more than just a slogan. As the article says, it was used an early Christian creed, there is use in exorcism. The current article could easily be expanded to a page or two. [[User:DJ Clayworth|DJ Clayworth]] 14:35, 14 Oct 2003 (UTC)
***If it is more than just a slogan then it deserves a proper article with a proper name.  We all know that this one is only here now because someone used it as a username. --[[User:Zero0000|Zero]] 14:43, 14 Oct 2003 (UTC)
****We also know that the "[[AIDS Kills Fags Dead|kills **** dead]]" one is here only because of trolling but we kept it for some reason.  That one is only used by a few bigots where this one is used by thousands in one of the worlds major religions.  I don't understand what the standard is here.  I am ambivalent about all of these, but we need some consistency.[[User:Ark30inf|Ark30inf]] 14:49, 14 Oct 2003 (UTC)
**The slogan does have a history in itself that would make a noteworthy Wikipedia article; perhaps we can use the historical significance of a slogan as a basis to decide whether or not there should be an article on it. Considering that there is already a [[list of advertising slogans]], then articles dedicated to Christian slogans, Islamic slogans ("Allah akbar"), and others would not be verboten. Why not categorize them under [[List of Christian slogans]], [[List of Islamic slogans]], et. al? --[[User:Modemac|Modemac]] 14:53, 14 Oct 2003 (UTC)
**I'd be in favour of deleting all slogans that are simply promoting an ideology. The only place I can see these having is in a contextualized discussion of Christianity/Islam/Zionism/Socialism/whatever. Just left on their own, as this example is, I cannot see any value in retaining them. --[[User:bmills|bmills]]
**Delete. [[User:Wartortle|Wartortle]]!
**This is idiotic. Slogans have NO place. I thought there were POV rules at Wikipedia? Why are we even voting on this? Just delete as inappropriate. This slogan and text can be moved to a POV piece on Christianity - [[User:Marshman|Marshman]] 17:00, 14 Oct 2003 (UTC)
***The "[[AIDS Kills Fags Dead|AIDS kills fags dead]]" slogan was kept but this one is somehow too POV and inappropriate? LOL[[User:Ark30inf|Ark30inf]] 17:57, 14 Oct 2003 (UTC)
**If a slogan is very central to a religion, and has a history and context that can be explained in a NPOV way, then it deserves an article. Just because it has to do with religion doesn't make it POV. (I have no opinion on this particular slogan, since I don't know how central it is to Christianity.) [[User:Axlrosen|Axlrosen]] 17:27, 14 Oct 2003 (UTC)

***The "[[AIDS Kills Fags Dead|AIDS kills fags dead]]" slogan has what history?  A few bigots put it on a protest sign or two.  We are going to have such a low barrier to entry for that slogan but insist that this one be "very central" to a major religion?  We need a policy on slogans, not varying subjective standards on the content of individual ones. [[User:Ark30inf|Ark30inf]] 17:57, 14 Oct 2003 (UTC)
****Well I'm not saying that I agree that [[AIDS Kills Fags Dead|AKFD]] should be included, maybe it should go too. I think that the policy on slogans should be the same as the policy on any other topic - if it's of sufficient importance then it deserves an article, otherwise it doesn't. Or at least that's what the policy should be IMO. Of course it's very subjective, but what else are you going to do? You think we need a different policy on slogans than for everything else? Like, no slogans allowed? [[User:Axlrosen|Axlrosen]] 21:31, 14 Oct 2003 (UTC)
*****No idea, I am ambivalent about these slogans.  But whatever it is, it should be consistent.  The reasons given for getting rid of this do not mesh with the reasons given for keeping others. [[User:Ark30inf|Ark30inf]] 22:15, 14 Oct 2003 (UTC)
** Delete (and by the way, I can't ''believe'' this has so much discussion!) -- [[User:Bcorr|BCorr ¤ &#1041;&#1088;&#1072;&#1081;&#1077;&#1085; ]] 21:55, 14 Oct 2003 (UTC)
**Even though I'm sympathetic to Christianity, this page should be deleted.  First of all, this phrase is basically the same thing as saying in Christianity "J-sus is God," and the usage of "Lord" here is a historical accident.  That is, it is the result of a historical development in which the title of God as Lord over all is used to replace his name.  (I think a good description of this develpoment would merit an article more.)  Otherwise, it is seems to me to be simply a colloquial statement of belief, though widely used (as opposed to a phrase which is used formally to refer to a belief or has aquired signficance beyond its literal meaning, such as transubstantion, "Faith Alone," or the Creeds.)  Finally, why is there a link to a church's website simply because it is called "J-sus is Lord"?  This should be removed regardless.  Sorry for the long-windedness (longer than the original article...)--[[User:DGB|DGB]]
** Delete.  I'll go this route as well, but I will put up [[AIDS Kills Fags Dead|AKFD]] for deletion after this vote is over and have faith that we will have a vote on it consistent with this one. There is no reason to have a rarely used hate speech slogan here based on these comments. Either keep both or delete both I think. [[User:Ark30inf|Ark30inf]] 22:32, 14 Oct 2003 (UTC)
*** I'm with you Ark. I did not realize AKFD was "kept" by changing it to "Slogan:.....". If someone "coined" such a slogan, and they have a biographical entry, then put the slogan in there - [[User:Marshman|Marshman]] 23:26, 15 Oct 2003 (UTC)
**This page was actually created before I became a user, unlike some have indicated. The phrase "Jesus is Lord" garners over 60k Google hits [http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=%22Jesus+is+Lord%22] (as a comparison "[[AIDS Kills Fags Dead|AIDS kills fags dead]]" got under 300 [http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=%22AIDS+kills+fags+dead%22]). I'm not saying that people shouldn't vote to delete this -- I'm just reminding everyone of the precedent this will have. If this goes, thousands of other 'unencyclopedic' pages will also need to go (lest we create a double standard!). [[User:Drolsi Susej|Drolsi Susej]] 00:46, 15 Oct 2003 (UTC)
**My suggestion is that "Jesus is Lord" be merged with [[creed]], which is a page that could use some more historical attention and detail.  "Jesus is Lord" is in one sense the first of the creeds.  -- [[User:Ihcoyc|Smerdis of Tlön]] 01:40, 15 Oct 2003 (UTC)
**Axlrosen put nicely. We do not advertise anything like Jesus is a god but we do cover those ads. -- [[User:TakuyaMurata|Taku]]
** Delete. It's damaging to the encyclopedia to have this kind of thing in separate articles rather than as part of [[Christianity]], since the slogan is no more nor less than a fundamental of the faith. [[User:Onebyone|Onebyone]] 09:44, 15 Oct 2003 (UTC)
*** I've reversed my opinion, on grounds that Wikipedia contains huge numbers of maths articles (my subject) that wouldn't have entries in a general encyclopedia but would be in a maths encyclopedia. The justification is that Wikipedia has plenty of space for specialist subjects to sit side by side. I'd say that this would be a valid entry in an encyclopedia of Christianity (even if it doesn't have an article in the online Catholic Encyclopedia). Keep. [[User:Onebyone|Onebyone]] 09:55, 16 Oct 2003 (UTC)
** Please see [[Talk:AKFD]] if you want to bitch about that article more accurately. [[User:MyRedDice|Martin]]
*** If I want to point out differing standards on deletion votes I will do it right here, thanks.[[User:Ark30inf|Ark30inf]] 14:15, 15 Oct 2003 (UTC)
****A Google search for the phrase "AIDS kills fags dead" returns Wikipedia as #1, #2, #3, #4, and #5 hits. That's a hell of a way for us to advertise ourselves. -- [[User:Someone else|Someone else]] 06:00, 16 Oct 2003 (UTC)
*****Lovely, and we show up on page 2 if someone searches for AIDS and DEAD. I'm listing that one here soon.[[User:Ark30inf|Ark30inf]] 06:16, 16 Oct 2003 (UTC)
**Keep. A Google search suggests that there's plenty of material for this article. Might be an interesting project for [[User:Drolsi Susej|Drolsi Susej]] if nobody else has an interest. [[User:JamesDay|JamesDay]] 10:01, 15 Oct 2003 (UTC)
**Delete. Anyone I have communication with can feel free to add my vote to any slogan titled article--moving it to something less POV or more general.[[User:Stevertigo|&#25140;&#30505sv]]
* Keep.  Needs more explication to show why this saying might be controversial or a shibboleth for certain groups, but its existence is certainly justified.
**Delete it. Let's ask ourselves what typical users of an encyclopaedia are going to look for. They might look for an articles like [[Christianity]], or [[Jesus Christ]], or even [[Lord]], but they're not going to expect every English phrase to be listed. By all means list it as an example in an article on [[slogan]]s, but it's just not a sensible name for an article in its own right. And I'm a Christian. [[User:Chrisjj|Chris Jefferies]]
**Delete - what Chris said, and we should scrap slogans in general, including AKFD. [[User:Fuzheado|Fuzheado]] 02:52, 17 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Well, I've apparently missed the deadline.
But if this gets deleted, I officially declare Wikipedia "nutso".
-- [[User:Toby Bartels|Toby Bartels]] 23:30, 23 Oct 2003 (UTC)